ckeji2 clarification

[solpahi]

I suggest clarifying ckeji's definition (I propose "x1 is feels ashamed/mortified/humiliated for being/doing x2 (ka)")

Is ckeji2 really like the other "under conditions" places? The corpus reveals that ckeji2 has very consistently been used in a way that matches the proposed definition.

[durka]

Wait, do you also propose dropping ckeji3?

[solpahi]

la durka cu cusku di'e

Wait, do you also propose dropping ckeji3?

Well, it might not be necessary with the new definition, since, if
there is an audience, it can be part of ckeji2, and if there is no
audience, well, then there is no problem anyway.

Note also that ckeji3 has been used exactly zero times.

[durka]

Hmm. It's hard to argue with the lack of usage, but it certainly seems to me that embarrassment/humiliation can depend critically on the audience: {so'i da zo'u da'i mi ckeji da lo mi mamta .enai lo mi pendo} is true, and the reverse as well.

[solpahi]

la durka cu usku di'e

Hmm. It's hard to argue with the lack of usage, but it certainly seems
to me that embarrassment/humiliation can depend critically on the
audience: {so'i da zo'u da'i mi ckeji da lo mi mamta .enai lo mi pendo}
is true, and the reverse as well.

Sure, but in both cases you can put them in the ckeji2. For example,
"I'm embarrased that X sees me naked" can be true of strangers, but can
be untrue of family members (for example), and you can simply say:

mi ckeji lo ka lo na slabu cu viska ce'u ca lo nu lunbe

And

mi na go'i tu'a lo se lanzu

My point is that the audience (when it exists) can be part of the
situation (the abstraction).

[adamlopresto]

I think that shame is inherently a social emotion, a feeling of being judged by others, and the audience is a key part of that. That's one of the main big differences between {ckeji} and {burna} (whose x2 probably requires the same clarification as ckeji2).

[dustinlacewell]

I think that you can just as easily be ashamed by yourself. Imagine you are on a deserted island, and you keep up a routine and make sure you have to keep some meat you got fresh or prepared and you fail to do so, you can feel ashamed without an external audience. I strongly agree with selpahi's reasoning that the audience can be trivially included in ckeji-2 but there are other ways also, such as ga'a

[adamlopresto]

Then you're feeling {toljgi}. English mixes a lot of these together, but I really do think something different is happening here. It's the (expected) opinion of others, not just how you feel about yourself.

[dustinlacewell]

I think that identifying a different way to say something does not invalidate the first way. Should we remove xlali because you can just say tolxau?

[adamlopresto]

I'm saying that {toljgi} and {ckeji} are different emotions. I never said we should remove anything. I said we should not remove the distinction, and that we should not remove a meaningful place.

[dustinlacewell]

I can see it.

[xorxes]

I'd be in favour of removing x3 on the grounds that there are many gismu
with place structure "x1 feels ... about x2", but I can't find any other
with structure "x1 feels ... about x2 before x3", and I don't like one-offs
in the gimste.

Is there a clear distinction between "burna" and "ckeji"? Is it just a
matter of degree? In Spanish, both would be more most directly translated
as "sentir vergüenza". A third closely related feeling is "sentir vergüenza
ajena", which I suppose in English would often be "to cringe" at someone
else's words or actions, as in empathetic embarrasment. That's why I would
leave open the possibility for "nu" in x2, even though I agree with the
usage with "ka" as well.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

[solpahi]

Perhaps it would help to remove "embarrased" from ckeji's definition to make {burna} clearly mean "flustered" (which can be an external {nu}), and add "embarrased" to {ckeji}, to make it clearly be about personal involvement in the x2 (so {ka} fits better). (or just remove it from ckeji). Then the two gismu would be more obviously distinct.

burna: x1 is flustered/disconcerted by/about x2 (event)
ckeji: x1 feels ashamed/mortified about being/doing/[having property] x2 (property)

Something like that.

[adamlopresto]

Those seem almost perfect, except I still contend that ckeji3 should not be eliminated. The whole point of shame is that it's a social emotion, and that having an audience is vital.