jbena

[solpahi]

balningau thead

Original definition:
x1 is born to x2 at time x3 [birthday] and place x4 [birthplace]; x1 is born to x2; x2 gives birth to x1. x1 is native to (fo) x4.

[solpahi]

x3 and x4 removed.

New definition:
x1 is born to x2; x2 gives birth to x1.

[solpahi]

Personally I wouldn't find it too crazy to remove even the x2. Is being born always the same as someone giving birth to you? What about hatching from an egg?
x1 gives birth to x2 can be expressed with words like jbedu'a, jbegau, etc.

[este-rs]

I propose:

x₁ is born by method x₂.

The x₂ I'm proposing is for expressing the innate property of how x₁ is born, for example hatching or escaping the womb or something. I don't know if this is a good idea, but anyway.

[lynn]

@ciuak Isn’t that x₂ just doing ta'i’s work, though?

I feel like once you strip x₂ and x₃ and x₄, you might as well throw this gismu away and use co'a jmive. (Talking about the start of your life as “being born” might actually be a little malglico; not sure.)

Keeping the x₂ looks fine to me. I feel like if ko'a lays an egg and ko'e ensuingly hatches from it, that entire process is ko'e jbena ko'a.

Another issue I have, though, is that jbena is strangely “passive” to me. The gismu pertains to giving birth, but unusually, x₂ does all the work.

[solpahi]

A baby is alive long before it is born. Being born is about being let into the world, out of the shelter of a (e.g.) mother's womb or egg. At least that's how I tend to see it.

[solpahi]

"by method" at first threw me off, but I had a similar idea just now and then realized it's more or less exactly what la uakci proposed.
I could imagine a variation of the original x2 that specifies the thing out of which the x1 comes in the process of being born, which could be a womb, or an egg, or whathaveyou depending on what life form you are dealing with. Then:

mi pu jbena lo gutra
I came out of a womb.

lo dinsauru na'o jbena lo caksovda
Dinosaurs are born from eggs.

But it could also be a property maybe. I'm always thinking about the difference between a normal human birth and a C-section birth. Both are womb births, but they take different exits. Is this something that jbena2 could (and should) be able to express?

mi pu jbena lo ka cliva lo gutra lo .kaisar.-zei-fenra
I was born by leaving the womb via C-section.

?

And some important related lujvo would include vivipary, ovipary and ovovivipary.

[lynn]

Oops, you're right about co'a jmive! Scratch that comment.

I like that idea! What if I say mi pu jbena lo mamta be mi? That is, under your definition, can a person still be the thing one is born-out-of? Maybe it’s a bit weird to be able to put both parts of organisms and entire organisms in x2, but it would be a nice bit of “backwards compatibility” with the old jbena.

[solpahi]

lynn said:

What if I say mi pu jbena lo mamta be mi? That is, under your definition, can a person still be the thing one is born-out-of? Maybe it’s a bit weird to be able to put both parts of organisms and entire organisms in x2, but it would be a nice bit of “backwards compatibility” with the old jbena.

This is a general question that has been discussed in the context of words like cinba but also words like jipno. I believe that when mi cinba do lo ctebi then I also cinba lo ctebi be do zi'o. Part entails whole. If there's a jipno on a part of X, then there's also a jipno on X. Predicating the jipno of the part of X just moves in closer, specifies more. It follows that split part-whole places could be merged. Instead of saying mi darxi do lo janco one could say mi darxi lo janco be do. There's a related oddity about this split, which is that it permits things like mi darxi do lo janco be mi "I hit you on my shoulder". This goes back to mi cortu lo stedu be do. tsani once proposed that cortu2 should be a property (ka) of cortu1 in order to address this problem. Another option, which aligns with what I said above about merging "at locus" places into the "whole" places, is to just merge cortu1 and cortu2 so that lo stedu be mi cu cortu "My head hurts". The downside is that a new way has to be found to say "I'm feeling pain"... su'o pagbu be mi cu cortu? Or maybe a lujvo. It seems like every option has problems.

But back to jbena.

If the place structure has a body part or object in the x2, then yes, I would say mi pu jbena lo mamta be mi is fine (but see #31 about the meaning of mamta).

If the x2 is a property, then it would have to become mi pu jbena tu'a lo mamta be mi.